By Mentor Nazarko
Part Two
Memorie.al / This interview with Ramiz Alia, part of a series published in the newspaper Abc in the autumn of 2005, is undoubtedly the longest, most complete, and freest exclusive interview of the former communist president at the end of his life. We have chosen to offer the perspective with which he views Mehmet Shehu, and it is clear that Ramizi has broken away from Enver Hoxha’s official line, according to which Mehmet was a polyagent.
Continuing from the previous issue
Mr. Alia, did Mehmet Shehu have preferences for any actor, writer, scientist…?
Alia: Mehmet read a lot. He was not indifferent to any field of social activity. He mainly loved literature and had good relations with literary people. He also liked Kadare. At first, not so much, to tell you the truth. For what reason? Because in his nature, Mehmet was sectarian and saw the negative sides of others. He was nervous and often said the last word first.
But later, when Kadare became friends with Mehmet’s children, he consequently got to know him better. Mehmet began to respect and appreciate Ismail Kadare. The fact that Enver Hoxha generally had a positive stance towards Kadare also influenced this, and Mehmet did not allow himself to hold a stance opposite to Enver’s.
Any episode of yours with Mehmet…?
Alia: My relations with Mehmet were generally good. I never had a quarrel with him. Naturally, I did not agree with his nervousness, especially towards people of art, culture, or the press, which were sectors I directed. But I also want to say one thing. Mehmet was very correct.
I do not remember there ever being a decision in the Council of Ministers, concerning the sector I directed from the party side, such as education, culture, etc., that was taken without first asking for my opinion. He would ask me, even if only formally, whether I agreed on various matters. That is, from this point of view, Mehmet was correct.
You have been accused that, with Enver Hoxha’s support, you accelerated the death or elimination of figures who could have been rivals to you, such as Hysni Kapo, Kadri Hazbiu, Beqir Balluku, etc. Is that true?
Alia: You are a journalist and convey others’ questions. I say that such questions are absurdities, questions asked by those who want to present the history of the PPSH as a history of clans killing each other, as an association where the struggle for personal power was the goal of all activity, starting with Enver Hoxha, and so on.
No, these are fabricated notions aimed at discrediting the party and Albanian communists. As for the direct question, I will not even try to bring any argument, since there is nothing real, nothing true in it.
The press has recently conveyed the atmosphere of the purging plenums of some of these figures. What impression does the re-enactment of those scenes leave on you?
Alia: I have also seen these republished materials. I understand that many people, especially the youth, do not understand many things, and they are surprised by much of what is said by the participants of those plenums, and this may also create various misunderstandings.
The origin of those plenums is what is known as the “Black Theses,” the elaboration by Beqir Balluku and a group of generals of certain orientations for the army, which were in opposition to the orientations elaborated by the Defense Council. The investigation into this matter was carried out by Mehmet Shehu and Hysni Kapo.
They presented the conclusions to the Political Bureau and the proposals for measures against Beqir Balluku. Later, it turned out that Petrit Dume and Hito Çako were also not out of the game. I do not think these events were experienced without pain by all the leaders of the time, because practically the main part of the Military Command was struck.
But the situation was extremely serious. We are at the beginning of the 1970s. Not only the Yugoslavs, but also the Soviets were acting against our country, not to mention the Greeks, etc. Meanwhile, relations with China were also deteriorating. In these conditions, the possibility of infiltration by foreign agents (I am speaking in the language of the time) was not theoretical.
And when the “Theses…” were discovered, the alarm bells rang naturally. In this situation, the blow fell not only on those directly responsible for the “Theses…”, but also on other people, generals and senior officers, perhaps even innocent ones. “Clan friendships” and “denunciations” against each other also influenced this, when military cadres implicated each other for faults and mistakes, etc. This is clearly seen even in the discussions and answers given by some of the accused cadres in the plenum.
What impression do their discussions leave on you?
Alia: Undoubtedly, they are very fragmentary and have an investigative character. I emphasize, they reflect the spirit of another time, characterized by many difficulties.
For a relatively long period, the Albanian press has given space in its pages to stories that have as their subject events and characters from the dictatorship period. Somewhere in a nostalgic way, somewhere in a documentary way, somewhere in a strained way or full of mannerisms of protagonism, etc. How do you judge this return of the dictatorship theme to the pages of the Albanian press? Is it a historical need, does it fill a gap in documentary literature, or what?
Alia: I think that, first of all, this issue has to do with knowing the history of our country, because it must be said that during these transition years, for one reason or another, many things have been distorted and people are concerned. Therefore, they want to learn.
Let me take the issue of the National Liberation War. It is said: it was not a liberation war, but a war for power, or worse, it was a civil war, fratricidal. The people who fought this war, all those partisans or fighters who themselves took part in this war, or the people, the villagers and city dwellers who supported it, want to know the truth. Or take the problem of socialism; even in that direction, all sorts of distortions are said.
Let’s stay with the war. There are some figures of that war, which have been seen for 50 years through a certain prism. But meanwhile, from this literature we are talking about, figures like Zef Malaj, or other figures of the communist movement, who were eliminated by Enver Hoxha, come to us in a new light. Or we learn that Abaz Kupi was an important figure in the establishment of the structures of the National Liberation Army. Do you agree that a part of the historical judgments about these figures should be revised or not?
Alia: I hold to one opinion. First of all, when we talk about history, we must focus on what is primary. The people in Albania must absolutely have the conviction that the war that was fought was a liberation war, a war that aimed primarily at liberating our homeland from the Italian and German occupiers. This is fundamental. Then, I agree that specific phenomena can also be looked at.
Zef Malaj, whom you mentioned, is not the National Liberation War of the Albanian people. A person is a person. Mistakes may have been made against him, he may have been wronged, but he is one person, and the stories about him cannot determine the character and great role of the National Liberation War…!
Enver made mistakes…?
Alia: Enver was the Commander-in-Chief of the National Liberation Army. And this army achieved the liberation of Albania. This is the main thing. But were mistakes made, did Enver make mistakes, you ask? Enver was a human being; consequently, he too has his own mistakes, which must be analyzed concretely. But I will not dwell on this issue.
I was talking about the War and the assessments made about it. I emphasize that our war was a liberation war. It was not a civil (fratricidal) war. A civil (fratricidal) war was fought in Greece after the war, when it came to who would take power. This did not happen in Albania.
Someone says, but wasn’t the war with Balli Kombëtar a fratricidal war? No, it was a war with the collaborators of fascism, because Balli Kombëtar sided with the Italian fascists, against the liberation war. It is not a fratricidal war. Therefore, I am of the opinion that, first of all, we must dot the i’s on the main thing, and then we can talk about specific cases.
I have declared and written before, and I say here with you now, that there were inevitably mistakes, there were also wrong actions in the sense that they cost the life of one or another, perhaps even more than one or another. There is no doubt, these must be looked at, but these do not invalidate the National Liberation War, as attempts are made today by mentioning one, two, five, or ten negative examples.
Now, of course, there may be political or study segments that might have such a goal, but there is also a general goal, which is the correct writing of history, which has been ideologized, which has been made in accordance with the ideology of that class, that political group that was in power, not to mention that even today a good part of the historians who dominate the Albanian scientific scene are the writers of that history and who find it difficult to deny what they have written. So I am asking you, should it be changed, – we understood that we must not move from the main objective – should the stance that history should hold towards figures such as Nako Spiru, Zef Malaj, or other figures who were eliminated by the dictatorship be changed?
Alia: It is not only some segments of politics that raise such issues regarding the war. An opinion is being created. The very fact that it is proposed even in the Albanian parliament to remove May 5 and set April 7 as Martyrs’ Day, shows that the National Liberation War itself is being attacked, to stigmatize it as a fratricidal war. You are from Kolonja. Safet Butka, whom I had as the director of the state high school when I was a student, fought against the Italians.
Back then, he published in his own tract the “Dalmaco-Këlcyra” agreement, denouncing Balli Kombëtar, although he himself was a member of Balli Kombëtar, but belonged to that part that wanted war against the occupier and not collaboration with the occupier. But now even some Ballist historian is trying to convince people that “Dalmaco-Këlcyra” did not exist.
Aren’t you manipulating official history…?!
Alia: No, I am not manipulating it.
Since Safet Butka has so far been considered a traitor by communist historiography. Are you revising that…?
Alia: No, no, I am absolutely not revising it with what I am saying. I spoke about a real fact and I did not make a biography or an evaluation of Safet Butka’s figure. I only said this fact, to prove that the collaboration of the Balli with the occupier was also condemned by a former Ballist like Safet Butka.
If you specifically want me to tell you more about that figure, we can discuss it, although I am not very up to date with his concrete activities during the war. Now I am coming to Nako Spiru. I am telling you that Nako Spiru was an honest communist, a determined anti-fascist fighter, a distinguished leader.
Nako Spiru, throughout the entire time of the Anti-Fascist War and after the liberation of Albania, remains in my opinion the figure of a determined fighter not only in war, but also for the development of Albania. Nako Spiru killed himself, because he fell victim to the Yugoslavs. This must be said bluntly…!
Nako Spiru also fell victim to Enver Hoxha’s lack of support under Yugoslav pressure…!
Ramiz Alia: Possible. Enver did not support him, but what positions was he in at that time? The Berat Plenum had occurred and Enver himself had been branded as anti-Yugoslav. Anyway, it can be discussed….
Was it this lack of support from the Yugoslav pressure that led him to suicide or not?
Alia: No, it was not this lack that led him to suicide. Nako was waiting for a response from the Soviets. Anyway, those who drove Nako to suicide are the Yugoslavs; it is the accusation the Yugoslavs made against him that; you are an agent of imperialism, that you are cooperating with imperialists against Albanian-Yugoslav friendship. This was the main thing, even decisive. If we cling to the fact whether X or Y awaited him or not, we will stray from what is fundamental. Otherwise, willingly or unwillingly, we are making the Yugoslav, Tito, and his comrades, innocent./ Memorie.al
Continues in the next issue
